We went to the annual church meeting last night; a business meeting. As members we have a responsibility to attend these meetings and I was uncertain as to how they would be conducted…having had some unpleasant memories of annual meetings from our association with the Presbyterian Church in Roseville. But, surprise! The meeting was quite enjoyable, being moderated by a most cheerful leader, the Methodist Superintendent of the Shasta District. Our Federated church is a mix of Presbyterians and Methodists, but I would say that the normally dour Presbyterians were in the minority last night. Or maybe the Presbyterians have been changed by such a close association with the more mellow Methodists? Could it be? I know that we enjoyed giving thanks to God after each and every motion was made, seconded and accepted. “Praise be to God!” And the moderator used a new (to me) parliamentary procedure, “Consensus”. He would ask if anyone stood outside of consensus; if not, we would pass the measure by a full consensus. That removed all of the possible discord from the counting of Aye’s and Nay’s.
Maybe these Methodists have something?
Do you ever find yourself wondering if Ignatius, Polycarp, or any of the Apostles would even recognize this form of church government?
ReplyDeleteHow does prebymethodism work theologicaly. Wesley was much more in tune with the Eastern Fathers (though he thought little of the Eastern Patriarchs) and Eastern theology than that of the Pope of Geneva, Calvin. Heck I can hardly see Wesley beating a mother for saying prayers for here deceased child or luring his detractors to their deaths.
I took my mother to a local United Methodist Church (the church of her youth). Boy those hand bell choirs are pretty. Hope your advent is a beautiful one.
Actually, I'm more interested in how God views us these days. I didn't use to feel that way...I was more interested in being theologically "correct" in my views of church government. Now I believe that God is bigger than that.
ReplyDeleteFederated churches are interesting in as much as they are sometimes made up of many denominations, Presbyterian, Methodist, Church of Christ, etc. etc. If you think of it with a historical viewpoint, they are more like the early church of the Apostles.
You won't find a Federated hierarchy anywhere, so they use a little of each kind of church government...whatever works.
Have you found an Orthodox church home for you and your family? Have a blessed Advent season...
And, yes...we have a bell choir.
Interesting take on church government. I haven't yet seen a model like you describe though I do beleive that outside the apostolic church there is the faith once and for all delivered. My problem with federated churches is that they have all sorts of differing theology, how can they be the church that scripture calls the pillar of truth when what one belives is so different than the other?
ReplyDeleteI don't share your historical view point of the early church and and I stand along with the glorified saints Chrysostom, Aquinas, Augustine, and even the ealry protestants such as Luther and Melanchthon. The Early evangelicals (prior to being labled Lutherans) understood the importance of being part of the church and sought unification with the other patriarchs. The problem is as hard as Melanchthon tried he could not enter the church conditionaly.
The truth be said, we have the same theology as most who call themselves followers of Christ. The Apostles Creed says it best.
ReplyDeleteAnd the early church I spoke of can best be found in Acts 4:32-37
Anything created after that time had man's pride involved in its building...witness the great cathedrals of the past and of today. Monuments to God?
Hmm, the great cathedrals, yes they are prideful, they boast of our King. What can we boast in but Christ? Look at what God commanded of the jews in their worship, images made of gold of angels, and so on. Jesus delivered the faith "once and for all delivered" and he gave it to his church, the church he said was one. The same church that existed before the completion of the cannon and is called the pillar of truth. I think all the divisions down the line are a matter of pride and what Chrysostom calls "The mother of all heresies" which he says is "the desire to rule". It seems to fit the partiarch of Rome from the late 900's until today, then you have all the splinter groups from the West trying to realign with the faith once and for all delivered and in some cases making up their own faiths.
ReplyDeleteThe pagentry of the church doesn't bother me so long as the rest of the liturgy of the church is also taking place. The liturgy isn't just worship in a church grand or plain, it is the almsgiviing, the fasting, the briniging forth of the Gospel into the world. The church really does play a role of many parts, in part it exist to bring people to salvation, it also exist to foster that pilrimage to salvation. It also exist to glorify God.
If any others surf onto your blog I hope that they can understand that in Christianity the differences are really over what people believe about God and rarely is it over whether one group or the other actually believes in God.
Pride? Boasting? Yes, we do that a lot, but not because we were commanded to. And to Glorify God? Does God need us to do that for Him?
ReplyDeleteJesus/God gave no directions on how to build a cathedral but he gave us the Good News and that should be sufficient. In fact, it is! "Believe on Me...!"
And all the rest are simply earthly differences which amount to a hill of beans...
So we igonore God prior to the incarnation? Is that what what you are saying? God is glorified in his saints. Does he need it? No, does he want it? Yes. And we are glorified by God. It's the whole "personal relationship" thing that protestants like to speak about so much (often just before inserting themselves in your relationship with God by asking probing questions). Jesus didn't tell us how to make cars, neo-natal monitors, etc. Are we not supposed to give God the glory in all things? Cathedral, tabernacle, temple......hmmm. How where those tabernacles adorned. Who gave the direction?
ReplyDeleteI look at the saints and boast in what God has done, I take great comfort in the lives of the saints because God has changed them and he will change me, day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute. God established his church, the first attacks on it came from outside the church then from within. I am told not even to wish tidings to a heretic. I am told there is one truth, one church (which is the pillar of truth not a pillar of relative truths). I can't just overlook differences for the sake of unity, look where that has gotten the Protestant Episcopal Church.
I didn't say to ignore God at all...God gave us the Good News and He gave Himself. Hard to ignore that!
ReplyDeleteHe gave no directions as to how the church should look. If we all followed the oh so simple directions He gave us, (The words in red type!) we would have no divisions and there would be but one church. And despite all of the divisions, there are christians present in all denominations, just as there are those who do not know Christ..and some of those are pastors, priests and other leaders. But those are personal failings, not denominational.
So you believe in relative truth is what I seem to be getting from what you are saying. That two groups called christians can believe in different truths that in some cases contradict each other and yet both truths are valid. So the church isn't the pillar of truths like scripture says but a pillar of different but equal truths.
ReplyDeleteJesus gave us a wonderful example of how the church would look, heck how did Jesus worship? Jesus handed the church the truth which is Him and did it once and for all. The church is part of Christ. I agree with what Augustine said, that there are wolves in the church and sheep outside of it's visible distinction. Chysostom said the roads of hell would be paved with the bones of erring priest and that the lamp post would be made with the skulls of erring bishops.
I think a discusion on the bible and how we came to what we call the bible today would be interesting. If we can't trust the fathers on monastics how can we then trust them on what constitutes cannon. Jesus never gave us a list. We appeal to Holy Tradition for that, Jesus left us the Holy Spirit to guide the church in truth. He left his church to be the pillar of truth.
This isn't a bash denominations comment, it is a call to unity, true unity which is not a truth but the catholic truth accepted by all as the faith once and for all delivered.
There are no "different truths" only differing views of the truth.
ReplyDeleteAnd what does the Holy Spirit tell you? I only know what the Spirit tells me.
You wrote, "I think a discusion on the bible and how we came to what we call the bible today would be interesting."
I will watch for it on your blog.
Ah... that is the million dollar question. What does the Holy Spirit tell me. I can tell you that the Holy Spirit will not Contradict Himself. He will not tell me something to you that is at odds with what He has told me. We know that Gods word is truth and we know that His church is the pillar of truth. We know that the church is one. What we have to determine how do we know the church when we see it. The great Saints of the West, those upheld by protestants certainly didn't believe the church looked anything like what we see in contemporary American Protestantism. After leaving the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (the Mormons) I went on a quest trying to figure out what the church is, why a reformation? Why so many denominations? It seems pretty clear that in the West you had the Roman Papacy followed up by the papcy of the individual. American Protestantism seems tainted by it's secualr political ideology. I grew up being taught that the Lord helps those who help themselves when that couldn't be any further from the reality that God helps a humanity which can not help themselves. Meritocracy is an anathema to Chrisitianity.
ReplyDeleteI fear that part of what drives contemporary Western Christianity is the desire to know what the Holy Spirit is saying to them now. It contributes to fadish christianity which has given us "The Prayer of Jabez", "The Purpose driven Life", the "Left Behind Series" and others. Why can't I walk into a "Christian" bookstore and find a single person that knows who Athanasius is let alone any of his writings? Why don't we focus on what God has already said, what he has already done in his church, with his saints. We have two thousand years of post pentecost church yet it is constantly being reinvented. Can you imagine the martyrs trying to water "church" down so it would be relevant, nonoffensive, entertaining? I take comfort in having a view of the church that lines up with Chrysostom, Athanasius, Polycarp, Ignatius, etc. etc. Some of these men where apostles of the apostles, the men handed that God handed the faith to. Even when I study the early reformation I see men that understood the importance of being part of the apostolic church rather than a vagante movement or ecclesiastic group outside of the church of the sacraments. I see with fondness in the reformation an attempt to return to historic orthodoxy. But without the Bishops who was to gaurd the truth? Where was the apostolic authority to make a concept like sola scriptura remotely possible.